Episode 3: Prison Organizing, From the Inside Out

Prison Organizing, From the Inside Out. We look back to recent history of Washington prison activism to show why we need directly impacted people to have collective voice and leadership in fixing the problems in our criminal punishment system. Amongst so many stories untold to those on the outside, we hone in on the TEACH program at Clallam Bay Corrections Center from 2013 - 2018 and Judicial Second Look coalition formed in 2024 around a bill initially written by Native incarcerated leaders and judges on the outside. We’ll think about lessons learned for inside-outside prison solidarity.

To learn more about TEACH and cultural groups, check out:

• Inside Out Project (2023), “Collective Cultural Convictions,” Inside Out Project, published in English at https://www.flipsnack.com/FFC779DD75E/collective-cultural-convictions-zine.html; and in Spanish at https://www.flipsnack.com/FFC779DD75E/esp-cultural-collective-convictions-zine-2023.html

• Documentary: Since I Been Down, DIrected by Gilda Sheppard (2020), https://www.sinceibeendown.com/ 

Credits

This episode was hosted by Ralph Dunuan, produced by Megan Ybarra, and edited and mixed by Anvar Hassanpour. This podcast was supported in part  by a Scholar-Activist Project Award from the Antipode Foundation and the UCSD Communication Department. This episode features interviews with Marco Juarez Rodriguez, Carlos Bernardez Jr., Travis ComesLast and Charles Longshore.

Transcript

Elizabeth [00:00:16] Welcome to CHOICES, the podcast that dives deep into real issues surrounding the currently incarcerated and survivors of mass incarceration. We're here to help share the stories of those navigating the challenges of life inside the Washington prison system, focusing on struggles, transformations, and rehabilitation. Join us on CHOICES to hear voices for a liberated purpose, presenting and archiving issues that impact Indigenous peoples and communities of color on both sides of the walls.

Ralph [00:01:03] Welcome back to CHOICES podcast, prisoner-led media for liberation. Hi, I'm Ralph Dunuan, your host, calling in from the Washington Corrections Center.

Megan [00:01:10] And this is Megan Ybarra co-hosting today with Ralph.

Ralph [00:01:15] So far we've talked about the whys and hows of Washington state's harsh sentencing schemes. How they impacted communities of color and how parole was lost for the state. I know these things can be confusing. I mean I was confused when I was going through the process. So I reverted to my defense mentality that I had as a youth, like I didn't care about nothing. Any reflections, Megan?

Megan [00:01:40] It was great to hear Dan Berger break down the history of incarceration, where the state imposed longer sentences under worse conditions. But even saying that, for me, I think you sharing this from the perspective of actually breaking down your own sentence on the grid is what really made it hit home.

Ralph [00:02:00] Yeah. So I can appreciate that, you know, and how it really does impact people, you know. That "lock 'em up and throw away the key" mentality is not working for our community. And we can all see that. So I hope everyone learned something.

Ralph [00:02:25] In this episode, we dive into the real work from the inside, how people are changing the culture of the prison industrial complex from the inside out. We look at two paths forward for folks to be engaged on the inside. With TEACH, which stands for Taking Education and Creating History, we look at how organizing around peer-led classes led to higher education degree pathways. Then we examine how Indigenous organizing created the first ever incarcerated-led bill, and how the coalition came together for positive change. Next, we'll hear from Marco Juarez Rodriguez, who talks about changing perspectives, and how TEACH gave them the opportunity to help others. And Carlos Bernardez, Junior and how he saw the seed of an idea of grow into a full functioning higher education program. Then we'll look at the Judicial Second Look Coalition, more commonly known as the JDA coalition. We will hear from two of the co-founding members of an all incarcerated board of directors, Travis ComesLast and Charles Longshore. We'll hear how these two started with a conversation and this idea for a need for a comprehensive change in how Washington state sentences its community members.

Megan I spoke with Marco Juarez Rodriguez about his experience with the TEACH Program at Clallam Bay Corrections Center, which is where I met him in 2017.

Marco [00:03:38] So I was released to Clallam Bay, and yeah, it was April 8th, 2015, and it's actually a day that I remember because I spent three years prior to that, my three years prior to that date were in isolation. So, I got out, I was, a little bit, out of my weight, like I lost some weight. I had long hair. And I spent a lot of time reading in there just trying to, trying not to go crazy, right? Just try to stay sane and and really consider like what was important to me. So when I got to Clallam Bay, it's like you're reentering the population again. I mean, being away for a period, whether it is a month, six months or three years, in my case, away from people. You know, it's  like you want to talk to everybody and at the same time, like you get tired of talking and you don't want to hear nobody. Well,  it's like a whole bunch of emotions. But I was happy to see a lot of people that I knew prior, in prior years. And then I remember I was I was trying to get a job and. on my way back, I believe , from the library, I went to the library and, and on the way back I was reading the call-outs and I see this little sign with with a picture of the shoes, the state shoes, the  were being issued to us. And  the sign, they had a picture,  and it was saying that we'll be charging you $30 on your account. Basically, like we had to make those shoes last one year. Now, those shoes were supposed to be used for exercise, for going to to the mainline and everything, right? These are the state-issued shoes. So basically the papers were saying that we had to make them last one year otherwise we will be charged $30. I was looking at this paper, and, and I just started, like, laughing to myself, right. And this man just gets close to me. And his last name is Witherspoon. Maurice Witherspoon. And we call them Zimbabwe. And I never met this man before. And he gets close to me and he's like, that's crazy. right? They trying to charge us now for for these shoes that we were supposed to be issued. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not I'm not sure that's gonna work. And he says, so what's your name? And and he introduced himself. We started talking to each other about like, the shoes, DOC.  And he's like, you just got here. I see that you you go to the library a couple times, and if you want, he said, why don't you come to see my class? And I'm like your class? Like, yeah, I facilitate a class on political science. That's what we need to learn, he said. We need to learn the politics and the policies in them, and the laws about how DOC cannot make us do this, right? He was referring to the shoes. And I was like, okay, I suppose I didn't really think much of it. Like I was like, he has a class, like, is he teaching a class? And so I was like, yeah, sure, why not? He said, put your name on a kite and I will fill it out for you and, you know, send it to where it needs to get. So I did.

Marco [00:07:35] And next thing you know, I'm on the call out to go to a political science TEACH class. And I get there. And I only saw him and his co-facilitator Andre Parker and I look inside the classroom and there's like 16 people in there. 12 of them are African-American. There's two that are white, and I'm the only Mexican in there. So, I mean, racial politics are a little bit complex. So when I go in there, I'm just like, I'm not sure, like what to expect, what to say. Not to mention the three years in isolation kind of have me like, you know, just thinking about it. I sat down and, and this man started talking about the Constitution and, and how it should be applied to the laws and, and how we should use the laws to make sure that our rights were being followed, right? So I was very happy with the class. He assigned us to write like an essay about an issue that we encounter, and how we should have been able to use, like the laws on our behalf, you know, to our benefit, to to our advantage. I enjoyed the class for the for the remaining of the quarter. And in the following classes I met Kimonti Carter. I met Andrew Parker, who was a big part of the TEACH program back then, and also D Nelson was part,  I think he used to do the healthy thinking class. And then John Galdamez, who was doing the ESL class, and Carlos, they're like, what's up man, you know, like you want to, you know, like do something. And I'm like, do something like, what is it like a class? He said, we're trying to work  on a history class for Mexico. I was like, well, we should think about creating something. And after a few weeks, I was able to talk to Kimonti because we were on the same room waiting to be called out to the unit, and I started talking to him about it. I'm like, hey man, I see that you have Viking history, right? And the TEACH program, you have African American studies and you have Asian American studies. What's up? You know, we need, we need...

Megan [00:10:08] So let me just insert a weird pause here. So the Viking history happens because they wanted to give everyone, my understanding is, they wanted to give all the different groups kind of a version of ethnic studies. And so the Viking history was a way to learn about being European without trying to be totally white supremacist. Does that sound right to you?

Marco [00:10:30] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, learning about it literally was it was it was refreshing, right? Like to see to see history from, you know, from a different perspective. So, so yeah, I remember that they, they say, Hey, we're going to have our meeting, we're going to put you on the call-out and we're going to work on the class during this period, during this couple of weeks period. Carlos and John Galdamez, they were transferring out. So I remember John Galdamez even wrote a letter to me and I probably have the letter somewhere around, you know, where he was telling me that TEACH was something that we should support and that he was doing the ESL class and that, you know, he would love to see the class continue. So I remember that Pablo Ortiz and I were able to like take over pretty much like the ESL class, and we did the Mesoamerican Studies class, which came about because after that meeting they're like, Well, look, you have to come up with a with a syllabus and, you know, the whole program for 10, 12 weeks.

That's pretty much how I was introduced to TEACH. From then on. I mean, it was just meetings and continue to work on making the classes better. One of the requirements there that I had to go through for TEACH to become a facilitator was to take all the cultural classes: the African Studies class, the Asian American Studies and the Viking history. I took each one of them two times. I actually enjoyed them. All in. I enjoyed the African Studies because you kind of like, the reaction that people have about learning something. I so like many people, like, I actually change from not being proud of what they saw in the mirror. But what they thought their history was to, like, walk in, really, like, high you up and really see themselves as of having history. To me, that was that was very impactful, like I saw, I saw people that didn't really think they had a history. And then next thing you know, like they were walking around, like talking about it, like telling people like, man, my ancestors were kings and things like that. And it was it was kind of like, it was a little bit emotional, you know, like just to see people that like see themselves differently.

Megan [00:13:15] So is there anything else about like TEACH or the solidarity in that moment of organizing that you wanted to make sure that we include?

Marco [00:13:27] I mean, I spent 20 years in there. I think. If I would say it was just like a, like a moment there. For me was by far some of the best years, from 2015 to 2018, right? Because I think we were able to like, see the potential in ourselves and those around us, and we were able to cultivate it, right, like help each other. And whether it was unintentionally or in good faith, the administration, with the setbacks that we had, we were able to to bloom, right? As a as a group and the interaction that we had. I don't like using the term "race", but the races and the different, the different groups in there. Like break that segregation that, that we sometimes put in ourselves. And, you know, I think it was it was good. It was actually good to find support in somebody from the BPC, from the API, from the from the Viking history class or somebody from the Native Circle. I'm not sure how you can replicate that, that moment, that movement in other prisons and other places. I'm not sure it be sometimes, uh, I don't want to say it like that, but it may sound like. I think the right people was at the right place at the right time. Right? Like. Felix Sitthivong, who I didn't mention, but he was like, when we used to talk, whether it was, it was among ourselves or with the group. We were always able to, like, see those things that kept us apart and prevent them. Right? Like we, we saw like somebody within let's say, whether it was the Mexican people, like somebody was not liking something, we were able to go in, "Hey look, let's work together on, you know, on this issue or let's try to find a solution for that." And yeah, I think it was just a way that we worked together. 

Megan [00:16:17] In 2024 he graciously shared his time with CHOICES Media while in Brazil. Es gracias a éI que contamos con el logo de Nuestro Grupo Cultural. Next up, we'll hear from Los about how folks on the inside worked together from the very beginning to start the TEACH program at Clallam Bay.

Securus [00:16:53] You may start the conversation now.

Los [00:16:55] Hello.

Megan [00:16:56] Hello. Okay, so we were just talking about ESL classes, folks who are native Spanish speakers who need to learn English basically in order to survive and be alright as well as just, you know, to better themselves. Tell me about who you are or where you come from, that you're bilingual first of all.

Los [00:17:16] So I'm Carlos. I'm a Hispanic Black man, and both of my parents are Native Hondurans. They were both born in Honduras.

Megan [00:17:29] Wait, you're Garífuna?!

Los [00:17:30] I am Garífuna.

Megan [00:17:32] Damn. Sorry, keep going.

Los [00:17:39] They both migrated. So, to back up a little bit. I'm actually trilingual. I think back. Excuse me. And I also speak Garífuna. Both of my parents were both born in Honduras, migrated to the United States in the early 80s in search for a better life. And here I am.

Megan [00:18:03] All right. So, you were born and raised in the Seattle area?

Los [00:18:07] I was born in New York. Yes. And then raised in the Seattle area.

Megan [00:18:10] Okay. So, because you were trilingual, you have both connections, right? To both the Hispanic Cultural Group and the Black Prisoners Caucus. Is that something that you get recognized by? Do you think the DOC sees that you're Black and Hispanic or Latino? And I would say, I mean, for me, I, I think of Garifuna as being Indigenous.

Los [00:18:34] So, no, I don't get recognized. It’s crazy because…. It’s actually been, I wouldn't say it's a struggle, but I would say is one of the highlights of being incarcerated. Like, unless you know me, you would never you would think that I'm Black, which I am, right? But that's as far as I would be able to see. If you didn't know me now, you wouldn't start. You wouldn't start knowing my background or my cultural background. And that's, you know, we've had a conversation before and let somebody else tell you about it because it's not it's not something that everybody knows about me.

Megan [00:19:18] Okay.

Los [00:19:18] Yeah. It's crazy because like when I do identify, I identify as Hispanic Black but just on contact, like we were talking about. We was talking about the environment at Clallam Bay at the time. For me, it was it had to be one or the other. It was either I had to be, you know, BPC or I had to be Hispanic Cultural Group. So, I just went naturally, I naturally just identify with being Black, but there's so much more to me than just being there.

Megan [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, you know, coming from my own context in which I am a very, very light skinned woman with a last name from Mexico. So sometimes people think I'm white. Sometimes people think that I'm Latina. It depends on sort of the context that you know me in, in the opposite way. And I would say that one of the things that, you know, in my own context, I see is that there is a lot of anti-Blackness amongst Latinos folks in Washington state. And I think there's a real hesitance to acknowledge the full spectrum of diversity that is Spanish speakers and folks from Latin America. So, what you're saying also just tracks with what I would say is like the anti-Blackness of the Latino and the Latino immigrant community on the outside, right?

Los [00:20:47] Yeah.

Megan [00:20:48] But so most of the people who are taking your ESL classes, then they're going to be identified as Hispanic. Is that right?

Los [00:20:55] Yes, ma'am.

Megan [00:20:56] So how many people ended up signing up for your classes and how did it go?

Los [00:21:00] So we had about 15 students in the ESL class. We also had 50 students in the Spanish class. And it went well. It went really, really good. A lot of people we want to get most people signed up for the Spanish class, of course. But it went really well because it gave us the opportunity to get away from, just the main line and be in a setting where we were learning together.

Megan [00:21:43] And am I right that everybody who taught all of the classes that were taken through TEACH were themselves someone who was incarcerated?

Los [00:21:49] Yes. So all of our facilitators were for the incarcerated. It was the population.

Megan [00:21:56] You know, I never really thought about this, but what you're telling me is that if I understand correctly, all of y'all already had experience in facilitating classes, mostly because you were teaching reentry to folks who came in with shorter sentences and were going to get out ahead of you.

Los [00:22:10] Yep.

Megan [00:22:12] Wow. That's got to be tough, man. Just like seeing classes of people come and go while you're thinking about staying there.

Los [00:22:18] I wouldn't call it tough. I think for me, it was more enlightening, right? So the reason why I say it was more enlightening is because when you're dealing with and you have a lot of time and you're dealing with individuals who’re getting ready to go home? It puts it in perspective for you, What are the things that you need in order for you to prepare for your own release? Whereas if I wasn't in that setting, it would probably be something that I wouldn't be thinking about a resume. It might be something that I'm thinking about or an interview is something that I wouldn't be thinking about or discovering what my focus is, wouldn't be something that I would be thinking about had it not it not been for me being in that type of setting.

Megan [00:23:12] So where most of the people who were students in the TEACH program did they have a lot of time on their sentences, did they have a little bit of time on their sentences, or was it kind of a variety of folks?

Los [00:23:21] Man, so most of us had, most of us had a lot of time on our sentences. I can't think of anybody who had better at the time or anything less than 10 or 15 years left on their sentence. 

Megan [00:23:35] So what we're talking about is a group of guys who got long term sentences, cannot access any programming and make up their own programming and ask for permission to do it, just for betterment and getting off the mainline?

Los [00:23:49] I would say for betterment, getting off the main line and just to be able to put themselves in a better position as they navigate through this experience.

Megan [00:24:07] And so was there a point at which DOC started to see the impact of the program you were having and did it get accepted?

Los [00:24:13] So yes, actually. I left Clallam Bay around September of 2016 ish. But some time before that, they were pushing some policies in order to kind of change how to facilitate or what happens with facilitators for the actual program. So at a certain point, facilitators, actually, it became a job. DOC created a position for facilitators in order to be able to… Once Clallam Bay started seeing the benefit in the program, they kind of started supporting the program a little more. And like I said, they just created positions for facilitators as TAs and things of that nature in order for guys to be compensated for the work that they were doing.

Megan [00:25:15] Yeah, I think being compensated for the work you're doing is always really important. Did folks also start to get college credit at a certain point?

Los [00:25:23] Oh yes. That was the next big step. So one of the very, very first credit classes was anthropology. I remember being in that class and oh, I hated it.

Megan [00:25:37] Why did you hate it?

Los [00:25:39] I just it just was it was just not for me. It was just… I was like, no, no, no, no thank you…

That was the program, when it blew up, man. It just became a big success. We started pulling in different guys from different races, different types of classes. So at one point we had an American studies course. We had a Viking history class. We had math classes. We had drawing classes. World literature. Surveys of history. We just had a whole full schedule of classes that we was able to get off to the ground and get going. And it's really just, you know, do our best to impact the facility or the individuals in the facility. 

Megan [00:26:40] When I first met folks who were in the program, I was really struck by how much solidarity there was on the inside in TEACH in a way that I often don't see on the outside when people are advocating for racial justice. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, what that experience was like for you and what kind of lessons you learned from it?

Los [00:27:01] I think that for me, the most impactful part about it was that once I learned that the guy that is next to me who I'm segregated from, is dealing with the same, Number one reality. Number two, we have the same struggles. It's kind of like, I can't even look at you like I'm against you no more. Because it's almost as if we're fighting the same fight. Right? And it's one thing to fight the fight individually, but it's a different thing to fight the fight together, because I feel like we're stronger together. And once I kind of realized that, I think that for me, everything became a lot more smoother and everything came a lot more clearer. And I just kind of take that with me everywhere I go, as I, you know, go through this journey.

Megan [00:28:02] Yeah. I mean, so I'm talking to you now from Washington Corrections Center and I'm thinking, how do you think that your experience in doing that cross solidarity work and doing activism and programming that was really incarcerated led... How does that shape the kind of activism that you do now?

Los [00:28:22] Well, it's actually everything. Because I think for me, like, everything that I do isn't exclusive to a class. So me being in Clallam Bay, you know, kind of getting that experience, I ended up going to Stafford Creek right? When I got to Stafford Creek, it was a lot bigger, the necessities were still similar as far as what we needed. You know, we came with the BPC, which, you know, we, we, we ended up getting running in 2017 or 2016. Excuse me. We got that thing running and we have a lot of the same model, like, hey, you know, we're in this circle. We have these years of different people in different circles who have the same needs. How do we work together to be able to come up with the vision that we want to see for ourselves individually and collectively? So I kind of take that model with me. And now that I'm here at WCC, I think that the model is still the same. When I see guys in the yard or when I see you guys are sitting in a day room and they're studying, my approach is always the same thing. How do we work collectively to where it is that we're trying to get to? Because fortunately, if we help each other, we'll be able to get to our destination a whole lot faster.

Securus [00:31:12] You may start the conversation now.

Los [00:31:14] Hello?

Megan [00:31:15] Hello. So what you just said. Some of what I see when you sit in on those resentencing hearings is that judges expect to see evidence of rehabilitation. They do look at those certificates and they notice that people are participating. And I don't get the impression, to be honest with you, that the massive cut of people's ability to develop and create and fund and hold their own programming, that got cut over and over again, but specifically during COVID and in a lot of ways just hasn't built back up. I worry that judges don't understand that, that those opportunities, there are folks on the inside who are willing to create the opportunities for themselves. But structurally, if you can't get a classroom, you can't do it.

Los [00:32:06] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And to add to that, it's like, you know, I remember like I was telling you, I remember developing classes and having these meetings. And one of the things I have always done, always like this.

I'll put it along these lines because this is as simple as it is. Listen. I don't need no paper from you. I don't need no pencils. I don't need anything from you. All I need is this space. Literally. That's all I need. And their response to that is always like, ohhhhh well the paper and the pencils. I told you that I don't need all that. All I need is the space and the access to have students in the space and we will learn. What we're.... I can pick up a book and build a curriculum based off the content below. Now. Now you know. It may mean that we may not be getting credit for this, but we learn something, right? And what we begin is the process of learning. It opens up the doors for us to be able to learn more and put ourselves in a position where we can potentially be like you in school and become professors. But until we open that door, we will never know.

Megan [00:33:37] Yeah, I think that's always what's really striking to me is how much energy there is to to do the work and how few opportunities there are. You know, it's not even like you're asking for people to create opportunities for you, but just to, to let you do what you want to do. So I feel like I always learn a lot and admire a lot as well as get very frustrated at the structural barriers you experience. You've also kind of talked around it a little bit, but like so there's going to be barriers from like universities and accreditations and ideas that professors are better. There's barriers from the Department of Corrections and there's also some stuff around just kind of like how people organize together and how organizing comes together and falls apart. And I don't know if you wanted to say anything about, you know, lessons you've learned or dynamics that you've seen in terms of how people are able to hold together in solidarity when it gets difficult.

Los [00:34:38] All right. That's an interesting that's an interesting topic. And I love that topic too. I think one of the most important things is, you know, I kind of touched on that a little bit when I say when I was telling you about. About being able to attend different cultural events. Right. It's something different, man. When you're able to see, when you're able to humanize individuals within their element, right, the relationship in the bond becomes a little bit different because it's no longer just based on the work, right? And yes, the work is an important element of what we do. But if I don't take the time to know how you're doing, or if I don't take the time to ask you, you know, hey, man, is there anything that I can do for you today or anything of that nature? It's kind of like. It's kind of like the focus is the work. And even though that's a beautiful thing. Right? I think that for me, the personal always the best thing to film and look at. Even though we don't have work, man. We'll always have our relationships with each other, and that's essentially building community. So when it comes to, you know, the big fall out, I think that a lot, a lot of times, what we don't do in the midst of in the midst of working, I think of a lot of things that we don't do is, is we don't we don't talk about, you know, the difference isn't are you who's right? It's easy to talk about what we what we have in common and what is difficult for us to talk about what we don't have in common.

Megan [00:36:41] Yeah. I mean, I think some of what you're signaling is that if you don't know what things you don't have in common, then when people act in ways that you don't expect, it feels like you've been betrayed. You feel surprised, You feel upset. Yeah. And I think so much of what's underlying what you're talking about isn't just, you know, knowing the facts of who somebody is or recognizing their humanity, but it's also just building up a relationship of trust so that you can come to the table… And a lot of times what I want to first acknowledge is that there's usually a broader structural issue, right? Like there's going to be someone who is in a position of power who, whether intentionally or unintentionally, folks get pitted against each other, oftentimes in in trying to get access to resources, get resentenced, get access to those classrooms, get recognition for the work that you're doing and sometimes or like just make compromises on what bills are going to get passed. And so there it's like if people are going to have different opinions, it stings less if you know it upfront than when you find out after somebody made a decision without talking to you about it. And I think that's like, you know, that that's where it's like it's not about agreeing with me or not agreeing with me. It's about the kind of respect that only comes from building up trust so that you know that somebody is going to act differently than you would ahead of time rather than like after the fact.

Los [00:38:12] Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I always like working with guys like Ralph or guys like Chuck or guys like John, because not only do we not only do we work together, but we eat together, too, and we discuss work while we're eating. And you know what? What better camaraderie is there than that?

Megan [00:38:38] Yeah. I mean, I will say also one of the things that I appreciate about guys like, you know, Chuck and Ralph is that if they don't agree with you, they'll tell you and they try to act in accordance with their values. And if they change their mind or they change their position, they'll tell you why. They won't pretend like it didn't happen, right? And I think a lot of times people are, they're averse to conflict, they're averse to talking about difference. And then that means that when it comes up, the consequences are bigger.

Los [00:39:09] Right. Right. Absolutely. I appreciate that. 

I really do appreciate your faithfulness and your commitment to it. I mean, to me, believe it or not, it's people like you who truly, truly, truly, truly I give a lot of credit for my development. Like, I literally give you guys the credit for my development. I had this interesting thing that happened to me that when I first started this work, I remember. Our sponsor, Mary Flowers, came to, this was probably like my first or second BPC meeting. And I go to the meeting and she sticks her hand out to shake my hand and I just remember feeling weird. I felt weird, I feel, I guess the best way for me to put it is out of place. I felt like it wasn't my place to shake her hand. But I realized that it was my journey and my condition that made me feel that it wasn't anything that she did. It was just my journey and my condition. That made me second guess myself. On whether I should shake this woman's hand or not. But I remember reflecting on that. I did shake her hand. I remember reflecting on that, later on, you know, down the line. And I realized something. I realized that if it wouldn't have been for that moment or for a moment like that, that. I would have never. That would be devastating. The value. In myself. Right. To be able to put myself in a seat. To put myself in a position where I'm seeing eye to eye with somebody that is free and that right there to help accelerate my growth. So I'm always grateful for the job and the work that you do. Like I'm always grateful for it Because it gives individuals a sense of worth. It gives them a sense of a self, a sense of worth. And it gives them a sense of what instills values in me.

Megan [00:42:06] And, you know, fast forwarding to 2017, when I first went to a TEACH gathering at Clallam Bay. I was really struck by the respect for themselves and others that the TEACH leadership, and actually all the participants had. Every single person that I met from Nuestro Grupo Cultural all made a point of making eye contact, telling me his name and holding out his hand to shake my hand. And it was clear that it was just this recognition of common humanity that was very important for them. And I could also tell that, you know, for a lot of those guys, every single time they put out their hand, it was like they were taking a risk because they could imagine that somebody wouldn't shake their hand and they did it anyway because they had that self-respect. And so that was really powerful to me. And, you know, Los, I think that's something that even though you weren't even there anymore, that's the product of the work that you leave behind is the confidence and the care that you inspire and others.

Los [00:43:08] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Megan [00:43:11] All right, man, I feel like that's probably a pretty good place for us to wrap in all this, feeling good and love and stuff.

Los [00:43:16] I think we'll be doing the greatest work that we can do, man. Because at the end of the day. Yeah. What is it? 98% of individuals that come to prison eventually go back out to society. So with that, with that being said, we gotta start thinking about the quality of its existence that we are wanting to send back out to society. And that's it. 

Megan [00:43:46] All right. We'll end it there, man. Thank you so much for making the time and for agreeing to do this sort of, you know, call me up and rap about things. Even though I didn't give you a background. I was just like, you talk to Ralph, it’s Ralph’s show, it should be good.

Los [00:44:04] Yeah. It's good, I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity. And anytime I could do something to help man or something, you know, clear things up or whatever the case may be. Man, you could always count on me to do that for sure.

~

Megan [00:44:34] Since his time supporting the foundation of the TEACH program at Clallam Bay Correction Center, Los has been transferred to Shelton at the Washington Corrections Center where he brings his experience and kindness to bear wherever the opportunities emerge, including the board of the Judicial Second Look coalition.

Megan [00:44:54] Next up, we'll hear from Travis about how the Judicial Second Look Coalition grew out of the Airway Heights Native Circle.

Securus [00:45:15] ... It will be recorded and may be monitored. If you believe this should be a private call, please hang up and follow facility instructions to register this number as a private number. To accept charges and consent to this recorded call, press one to refuse charges. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now.

Megan [00:45:34] Hi Travis, and thanks for joining us on the CHOICES Media podcast. To get started, can you tell us your name and just a little bit about yourself?

Travis [00:45:47] My name is Travis ComesLast and I have been incarcerated now for a little over 30 years. And really, during that time, I took accountability, engaged in many programs as possible. Learn as much as I can. Now, today I try to be a mirror of change for those around me. Reflect the good of what I learned. The good of the teachings that people pass on and try to be, you know, a model of change for people to follow.

Megan [00:46:25] Yeah. That's great. So, listeners of this podcast have already heard a little bit about groups like the Black Prisoners Caucus and Nuestro Grupo Cultural, particularly in terms of creating the TEACH program at the Clallam Bay Correction Center. Now, I know that Native Circles are different. Can you explain a little bit about what Native Circles are and what kind of work in the Native Circle at Airway Heights?

Travis [00:46:47] Native Circles are tribal members that enter the system. You know, basically, our tribal community in here. And what we do is focused around spirituality, on traditional ways of life and really trying to get back identity that we lost that landed us in prison. Particularly here at Airway Heights, more than a decade ago, we began focusing our focus on healing and community and family, and actually addressing trauma that got people to prison for the fact that they're making poor decisions. You know, a lot that goes into that. And so really here, at Airway Heights, we not only keep the, you know, when Native Americans come in, the values of our traditions like drumming, singing, dancing, beadwork, things like that. We also, you know, encourage them to educate themselves, to be informed, to really create a safe place for healing so that they can work on themselves while they're here, to hopefully to leave here a better person.

Megan [00:48:08] So I've heard, and I want to emphasize that I understand that Native Circles are based out of spirituality. But folks in Native Circles often have conversations and build friendships and relationships that are that go within and beyond the actual work of the Native Circle. So, I've heard that it was actually out of conversations over the last few years with participants in the Native Circle at Airway Heights that this thing called the judicial Second Look coalition emerged. And I know that you were one of the leaders. So, can you share a little bit about how you remember that coming together?

Travis [00:48:43] A lot, a lot of that goes back to the community portion of what we do here as Circles within the facility. We're always trying to be involved and help one another regardless of, if you're Native, that does not matter. When it comes to charities, we try to help one another individually and collectively and in those groups.

So that conversation really came up for me and my brother Charles, and it was through our advocacy for our Native Circle, reaching out to tribal entities, and preparing our pow wow that we've really grown and learned how to start networking and really took that step in the direction of, you know, hey, we can get things done on the phone. You don't have to always rely on someone and say, hey, can you contact this person to let this person know? We just contact them directly and it's worked out for us. And so with that, you know, of course, those who, you know, took accountability and transform our church made that transformation in our life and rehabilitation. There comes a point in the sentence where the punishment function at that point. Now it's a matter of getting back to that community, get back to that family, you know, and finding ways to get home to our people who need us, to the communities that need us. And a law passed, 6164 that allows prosecutors the discretion to bring people back if the sentence no longer serves the interest of justice. And of course, prosecutors are the ones that put people in prison. So you're not going to find many who take the time. I don't think they're already done, you know, to to look for those who made that rehabilitation. Who did the hard work and just really no involvement when it comes to now for them to know who's doing what and who is deserving of that. So with that said, we was talking about we need to be able to put this or that correctly, you know, even a 6164. Hopefully at the end of the day, even a prosecutor agreed to that. You still have to go through the judge and they're still out to the judge. So why not just pop out the prosecutor and go straight to the judge.

And that's how that conversation began one morning between me and Charles and through our work with the Native Circle. We started reaching out to people that that we met through the course of our transformation and, and the inside work that we've done and advocacy in different things. And we drafted a draft of a bill, sent it out. And, man, it took on really a life of its own and became this pretty significant coalition with people from all walks of life and professions. And it is what it is today because of taking that initial step of just going out and doing it.

Megan [00:52:03] Yeah. I think it's really important to me to know that that bill, you know, it's always going to get changed and transformed, but that the initial idea and that the initial draft of the bill was something that you and Charles wrote is really impressive. So what now? We're in 2025, which means that we are in the second year of trying to get the Judicial Discretion Act passed, as well as the second year of the Judicial Second Look Coalition. What lessons have you learned and how do you think the work of the coalition has changed?

Travis [00:52:36] I think the lessons we learned is that we have a better understanding of how the process works. The complexity of trying to get legislation both through to the session is no easy feat by any means. It takes a lot of hard work. Without the coalition, none of this would be possible. And really, you know what, the biggest thing I think we learned is that we need to be unified as a collective and be informed and also educate, you know, people on both sides and in order to make a well-balanced, informed decision. So it definitely has grown the coalition. And we got more inside organizer board members that are crucial to this entire process, and bring new ideas, new thoughts and discussions to the table and it's really an amazing thing. And that's something that I know we are thankful to be a part of.

Megan [00:53:45] Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that. So, I have done some support work with folks who are incarcerated, who are advocating for themselves in the state legislature for a couple of years. And this one, to me, feels like a better model than some of the other ones I've seen because of the importance of currently incarcerated leadership folks who are on the inside being board members who actually get to make decisions for the coalition. Can you tell me a little bit about what that leadership looks like, and what meaningful participation for currently incarcerated folks to speak for themselves in advocacy looks like?

Travis [00:54:24] Well, legislation about us, you know, needs to include us first and foremost. So much decisions are made without any of our input. And we're not, we're not saying that we  have all the answers or that this should be done this way. But we're giving you an inside look and a view that otherwise wouldn't be seen. Being a part of this coalition as inside board members allows us a voice. Being in that role, you know, we and in the work that we do, just like many out there in the coalition. We advocate here, we educate here, and we try to keep people informed. So a lot of times what we bring to the table is not just our personal opinion, it's opinion as a collective in the facilities that we're housed in. So that's important for people to be heard and valued and also puts a face on are those of us incarcerated, let those that have been doing that work, that we are people, that we have families. We're fathers, we're children, we're sons, we're uncles, we're all that, you know, and we're also, you know, part of the community. Washington legislators took an oath  to represent the people of Washington. We're included in that as well. And so for our voice to be heard and for us to be at the table in a lot of these discussions is really a critical part in this entire process and to bring a sense of balance to everything.

Megan [00:56:04] Yeah, I think I really appreciate that. And, you know, I hope the JDA passes this year, as we were talking about earlier, I also hope juvenile points passes. I hope emerging adults passes. But beyond any given year and beyond any specific bill, I think there's a lot to learn from inside outside collaborations. So I'm thinking about listeners who maybe haven't done as much of this work with inside outside collaborations, and want to do more support for people who are currently incarcerated. What advice might you have for listeners on the outside who want to think about how to grow and or just maintain accountable inside outside relationships?

Travis [00:56:42] I think, for one, those that are on the fence, those that believe we should continue to be incarcerated. You know, we really need to collectively as a whole, embrace collaboration. You know, finding the balance for both sides. You know, one that creates equality for  everyone and making a brighter future for all those involved. You know, DOC you know, makes it difficult, but I would encourage listeners, and those thinking of getting involved in finding ways to reaching out and find ways to get involved with those on the inside. And I think you could at least get that perspective of how we are here and, and seeing that, that, that we're truly, you know, no different than anybody else. We made poor decisions. You know, we pay for that. And in order for the work to complete the restorative justice process. You know, there comes a time of punishment. And there comes a term of rehabilitation. And there comes a point in, in many instances where we no longer pose any danger to the community, and the harm that's being done is keeping us incarcerated. You know, without being able to personalize those stories of people to listen, to those stories and hear from our side, we're never going to have a truly informed, you know, opinion of how this process works, what needs to be done, solutions that need to be made. Just try to keep an open mind and that goes for both sides.

Megan [00:58:25] Yeah, I appreciate that. Travis, on behalf of Ralph Dunuan, I want to thank you for giving us the time to teach us a little bit about the work of the Judicial Second Look coalition and the context of the Native Circle, which I think is so important.

Travis [00:59:01] So but for the listeners, you know, the current process, the current status, the thing, it's not working. We're doing our part on the inside. We do that recidivism rate to heal these traumas and to practice change and people. The portion that we picked up, a lot of stuff when it comes to the population, it's very small, but hundreds of millions of dollars are spent each year on incarceration, and the money being spent on people who no longer pose any danger to society. It no longer serves the interest of justice, and all we're asking is for equal protection. The same thing that if we were, if we were convicted today under the law, we would receive, most of us, a much lighter sentence. And we're just asking for that same opportunity and that test that we get to show our work to get back to community and to make a difference not only here but on the outside as well.

Securus [01:00:08] You have one minute left.

Megan [01:00:10] All right. Thank you so much. Have a good day.

Travis [01:00:12] I felt good, thank you. Okay. Bye bye.

Megan [01:00:32] Travis ComesLast continues his leadership as a board member of the Second Look coalition and a Native Circle mentor. Next up we hear from Charles Longshore, a co-founder of the judicial Second Look Coalition at Airway Heights. After he was transferred to the Washington Corrections Center in 2024, the board built up incarcerated leadership throughout Washington state prisons. In our next episode, Charles will dive into the specifics of how they wrote a bill on the inside. To end this episode, however, we'll listen to his perspectives on inside leadership and inside outside collaboration.

Charles [01:01:28] My name is Charles Longshore, a Skokomish tribal member, currently incarcerated, serving 35.8 years. I am a Native American and a representative of the Tribal Sons Native American group here at Washington Corrections Center. I've been incarcerated just over 13 years, and I still have 20 to do. And I am one of the Board members for the Judicial Discretion Act, House Bill 1125. I wrote the bill with my typewriter on my desk.

Megan [01:02:00] Can you tell us a little bit about how your leadership has developed over the 13 years you've been incarcerated?

Charles [01:02:07] Well, who I am today is far from who I was when I first was incarcerated. And today I believe I am a natural born leader. I have worked collaboratively and collectively in advancing numerous different types of legislation, ranging from the right to vote while incarcerated, eliminating youth debt young people who can't afford their LFOs, to now to Judicial Discretion Act House Bill 1125, which is before the legislature today. I'm an activist for Native American rights. I advocate for people and try to instill services and support so that Indian people have a better chance upon release and come out better men than they were when they first were incarcerated.

Megan [01:03:07] Yeah. That actually brings me to something I wanted you to speak on a little bit. I know that this first set of work that you did last year for the legislative session in creating the Judicial Discretion Act and building up the Second Look Coalition, really emerged out of the Native Circle at Airway Heights and then found its way out to other prisons. Can you tell me a little bit about what kind of outreach you did to other impacted communities, and who's participating in the Second Look Coalition, and why it matters that we have different kinds of folks at the table participating in this work.

Charles [01:03:49] Yeah. So me and Travis ComesLast are sitting at a table and discussing. And this has been a long discussion over a period of years of what can we do to get people incarcerated another chance, and most cases their first chance. And so, we drafted a bill, sent it around to the community, requested support. And I began just making phone calls left and right. And there's an article that was written on this called Behind Bars And Then a Bill, about how people inside created this bill and called upon the community for help. It started with me contacting, you know, various different advocacy organizations. I will say it wasn't all roses, man, when you when you're coming grassroots for things and it's a new thing and no one's no heard of it, you’re gonna face challenges. You’ll even get pushback. But I defied all logic. And I began collecting people who were just as impacted, talking to survivors. I began to learn that there was a judge's group also having the same ideas, got in touch with them and was able to start bills and began meeting lawyers, interviewed prosecutors and tried to build up something that can give this a chance. We've had many meetings with legislators. Doing presentations to Senator Dhingra about the situation with 6164 and how it didn't meet its mark. We gave presentations over and over and over again trying to find a prime sponsor, and we finally got them.

I remember a point in our advocacy and organizing, like, I was making all these phone calls and had no place to go. And I remember contacting one of my friends who's in our coalition and I asked him, do you got a zoom? And he said, yeah. I said, great, let's set a meeting date. And I began calling everyone and sending them the links, and I was able to get everyone in space. I remember at one point we had almost 100 people in the coalition at one time on the zoom. I remember professors from the University of Washington. I remember professors from Berkeley. I remember people from anywhere and everywhere. We got focused on this project. And. And here we are today, you know, round two in the legislature. I remember. You know, people saying that incarcerated people could not do this. I remember the people saying we shouldn’t do this bill yet, and I remember them saying this bill don't have a chance. And then we passed the House of Representatives from the first swing and defied all logic to the point where the Attorney General was saying, “that surprised me.” To the point where people were like, hold on, man, there's a concept here. There's something really to this, because you're right. We are incarcerating people at nearly 50 -- life and long sentences, and nearly 50% of the prison population here. Right. There is a stack of people, of rehabilitated people live that deserve another look.

And then I began realizing, like advocacy is…It's not about me. It's a we thing. So, I began doing the outreach into other groups like the Asian Pacific Islander Cultural Awareness Group, the Black Prisoners Caucus, and just reaching around to other facilities as well to make sure we’re all coordinated and working in sync, in harmony, because it's often problems within. If one institution is doing one thing and not checking in with the others, then we're not all on the same page. So it was a part of strategy to try to get us all behind something and put something forward that we can all support. So that's kind of led to where we're at today.

Megan [01:07:47] Yeah, I think some of the most difficult work in advocacy is just having accountability. And from where you're at sitting in Washington Corrections Center, that inside-outside work is really hard, and reaching across to other facilities is also really difficult. What are some of the things that you valued most in this work in the coalition in terms of maintaining communication and building up accountability?

Charles [01:08:15] Charles: [01:08:15] Well, one thing that I noticed is the collaborative effort, it's not a one person show. And that's when I started feeling crunchy early on in my advocacy because everyone was looking to me as the decision maker. But I had to be accountable to my community, and I had to find a way to empower voices so that it isn't a me thing, it's a we thing and begin working like that. So what I love right now is we have a board of directors, we have a voting process. We have, but we also respect democracy even if our votes not unanimous and it ends up being majority. We still respect, the integrity of our proceedings and respect other members who voted. So I really love the system we have. Definitely wish it was more, I wish we could all be on the phone together. I wish we can all be collaborating at the same time together. But for what we have, what we got, I would say we're doing pretty well. And I really do love the steering committee that we work with, that checks in with us, that keeps us informed, keeps us appraised as the things move quickly. Get us an email, let's get the votes out when they need to collect the information and share it out and make decisions swiftly. So those are all things that I appreciate and how we're all accountable to each other. And when things happen, we're not, we have a good enough relationship to be able to talk to one another so we can stream things more efficient.

Megan [01:09:57] Yeah. You know, and it's at this moment during the legislative process, you don't know what the outcome is going to be this year. You don't know what will or will not happen with the bill. And what's important to me is that this is a process that is moving forward, that is accountable to a board that is made up entirely of people who are currently incarcerated and that, you know, this is something where we've got a coalition of people who are doing our very best to be accountable to the folks who really are the most impacted and who initially wrote this bill, and keep it pushing forward. So, I just want to thank you for making a different model of what grassroots looks like. And when we say that we're accountable to people who are directly impacted or currently incarcerated. This to me is the… is one of the first times where I felt like we're not just saying it, but it actually is true. And I'm hopeful that this will give many people an example to point to that means that we can hold advocates accountable at a new level in Washington state.

Charles [01:11:10] Yeah. Not only that, but value to our lived experience. You know, there's value in that. A doctor can come in and write something and look up data and look at science and then say, here is the solution. But it's the missing part, unless you live through it, and know all of the faults or the flaws of that, then you can't you won't ever know because it's things learned through experience. And that's why I think this is important. It's also important for us to make decisions that directly impact us, because it's coming at a cost to us the most. And what we give up should be our choices for no one else to say so. Because you won't be the ones to feel the consequences of those decisions made.

Megan [01:12:10] Yeah, it's been, you know, difficult and inspiring to just see. The kinds of ways that people are making choices that will get the people who are the most vulnerable, who, you know, need to get out the most to really prioritize them and to try to push the bill forward, even when that means, you know, you might essentially be writing yourself and your own opportunity out of the bill or having to wait many years or, you know, some combination thereof. It's really inspiring. And I absolutely agree that the people who should make those decisions are the people who have the direct experience and have done the work to think about how to apply that in making our laws better.

Charles [01:12:57] Definitely. Nothing about us without us.

Megan [01:13:02] So I want to like, just thank you so much for your time. And before we finish recording, I wanted to ask you if there's anything else that you want to make sure that we include in talking about this work on Ralph's podcast.

Charles [01:13:15] Well, I just want to give a shout out to CHOICES Media and all the hard work you all they're doing. Tracking the bills, getting the action alerts out, supporting the people and giving people a voice, spreading it out across institutions, centering those who are really impacted. And. And bringing this whole concept to life even in this situation. The podcast led by that an incarcerated person. It was something that no one thought should be either. Right. And we are doing it. So my point is, is that this talent's in here. There is value inside here. And we should all tap in and see what exists beyond these walls.

Megan [01:14:05] Yeah. And I hope that this can be part of a project of, you know, learning about the value and the opportunities and the friendships that await for folks who are inside the walls and then do everything we can to get people out as part of a broader process of healing, you know?

Charles [01:14:19] Definitely. Well, thank you guys for the time and recording. I appreciate this opportunity and I hope I came through clear and we can get these episodes out. I look forward to listening to them and seeing them all shared.

Ralph [01:14:56] This episode was produced by Megan Ybarra and edited and mixed by Anvar Hassanpour. Also special thanks to Los and Marco for their work with TEACH, and to Travis and Charles for fighting a system that most don't understand, for something comprehensible and tangible when it comes to sentencing in Washington state. From the inside out, this is Ralph Dunuan sending out my best to all. And in solidarity for liberation and the communities we want.